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Daniel Griswold on The Ethics of World Trade on PBS.
December 3, 1999.

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Deeply moral issues can sometimes be exposed in unlikely settings. And that happened this week in Seattle. Representatives of the 135 member nations in the World Trade Organization met, or tried to meet, as they do regularly to make rules to encourage more free international trade. But tens of thousands of demonstrators blocked the streets, protesting WTO policies they say hurt everything from organized labor to human rights and the environment. They charge the WTO with helping the rich and hurting the poor, and with being too secretive. The demonstrations were peaceful until a small group of men in black became violent. The Seattle police responded with tear gas, and the National Guard had to be called in.

"All this because finance ministers and other officials wanted to negotiate more free trade? What were the underlying ethical questions driving the protesters and the WTO? Daniel Griswold is the associate director for trade policy studies at Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank in Washington. Jim Wallis is a pastor, a reformer, and editor of SOJOURNERS MAGAZINE, also in Washington. Welcome to you both."

Jim Wallis: "Thank you, Bob."

Daniel Griswold: "Glad to be here."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Jim, you were in Seattle. You preached to many of the demonstrators. From a religious perspective, your religious perspective, what's the case against more and more free trade?"

Jim Wallis: "Well, I spoke in the cathedral to the Christians -- there were 1,400 of them --who were there to support the relieving of crushing Third World debt for the world's poorest countries as a part of trade rules. What happened in Seattle was very symbolic and significant, I think, because the rules of the global economy now are going to be a public question. Who makes the rules? Who benefits? Who suffers? And who's a part of the process? That's going to change now."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Dan, you also come to this from a religious perspective, a Christian perspective. What is your most important reason for more and more free trade?"

Daniel Griswold: "Well, I'm concerned about the moral and practical impact of protectionism. I think it falls hardest on the poor and most vulnerable in society. We had the highest trade barriers against food and clothing, which are essentials, and we had the highest trade barriers against those products made in poor countries. So we -- it's almost as though we've targeted the poor with our protectionist policies. I think free trade brings people together; it raises the material well-being of people in society and creates a more peaceful world."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "A couple of centuries ago, Adam Smith said people working for their own benefit help others as if there were some kind of invisible hand at work. You've written that that hand is "nothing other than the hand of God." You really think that free markets, free trade is divinely inspired?"

Daniel Griswold: "I believe the way God made society and made people, that we work best when we're working for our own families. And in order to succeed in the market, you have to please other people. You have to produce products and services that other people want and find useful."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Jim, does free trade not raise everybody?"

Jim Wallis: "Well, that invisible hand is often a sharp slap in the face to workers and to kids in sweatshops and to the environments. That's why World Vision and the Catholic Church and others have talked about rules. There has to be rules. Somebody's making rules. They're being made now by the largest corporations. Who's making rules and who benefits? When the Catholic Church says, "Look who should be protected," that's a religious concern."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "But you say, "Okay, somebody has to make rules." What are you advocating really? Are you advocating some kind of international bureaucracy that will deal with health issues, environmental issues, safety issues along with trade issues?"

Jim Wallis: "We have rules in this country. Corporations can't pour their waste in the rivers. We have to inspect meat. There's safety regulation ..."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "But we have a national government making those rules."

Jim Wallis: "Right, right. So we have to have international forums which represent the civic organizations in those countries, the -- as many people as possible, to have fair rules. Nobody's talking about world government here. We're talking about -- now the rules are being made by somebody, by the biggest corporations. Do we trust Nike to finally determine what's right and fair? I don't think most of us want to do that."

Daniel Griswold: "But, Jim, the -- there's an issue there of how do you enforce the rules and who makes the rules. Should we in the advanced economies be imposing our morals on these less-developed countries? Should we be enforcing them through trade sanctions? You know, is it going to do the poor of the world any good to make it more difficult for you and me to buy the products that they make, make it more difficult for Americans to invest in those countries so they can raise their productivity, which in the end is the only way you can raise living standards and core labor standards?"

Jim Wallis: "The ..."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Dan, why can't you have international rules about health and safety and the environment and that kind of thing, just the way we do in this country, along with a great deal of free trade? That's the way we work here."

Daniel Griswold: "Yes."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Why -- why are we in -- why are we recommending anything different for the rest of the world?"

Daniel Griswold: "There's nothing inconsistent with free trade and high standards on worker rights and the environment. It's just those standards need to be different for different countries, depending on their level of development."

Jim Wallis: "Well, when those rules make poor farmers produce cash crops, exotic fruits for the West, instead of staple crops their families can eat, those are bad rules. So how do we have good rules? No one's talking about protectionism, Dan. We're talking about a global economy and who makes the rules."

Daniel Griswold: "Well, that's one of the alternatives to free trade."

Jim Wallis: "Rules -- there can be rules that are agreed to by civil society organizations and governments around the world that are fair, that protect workers and the environment and child labor, for example."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "One thing that trade sanctions can do, maybe, is encourage greater attention to human rights in some countries, such as China. What do you make of that?"

Daniel Griswold: "Well, first we need to be practical as Christians and ask what works. And trade sanctions have been a spectacular failure."

Jim Wallis: "Not in South Africa."

Daniel Griswold: "Now second, they punish the most vulnerable people in society. The leaders of society do fine. They get the goods. But it punishes the poorest people."

Jim Wallis: "But, Dan, in South Africa, sanctions were very effective in bringing apartheid down. And church leader Desmond Tutu said, "Yes, it's hurting our poor, but we are willing to make this sacrifice for the sake of ..."

Daniel Griswold: "Those sanctions were multinational ..."

Jim Wallis: "And it works."

Daniel Griswold: "... and we -- and you had an elected government in South Africa, which you don't have in most dictatorships that are targeted."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "And Jim, very quickly, what was the effect of the Seattle events? Did they help the free trade position or not?"

Jim Wallis: "I think it's deeper than that. I think they said from now on, the rules of global economy are going to be a public conversation, and nongovernmental organizations are going to be a big part of the discussion."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Dan, what do you think the effects were?"

Daniel Griswold: "Well, I think it illuminated some of the dividing lines. If you notice, the less-developed countries had no sympathy or support for the protesters. They realized if the protesters had their way they would be locked out of the global economy."

Bob Abernethy, PBS Host: "Mm-hmm. Daniel Griswold of the Cato Institute and Jim Wallis of SOJOURNERS MAGAZINE, thanks to both of you."